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 Post subject: Low Frequency (Percussion)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:45 am 
Posts: 18
absolutely wonderful interface. if i can figure a couple key issues out, I will probably get rid of my RC-50 - and get an iPad just to use this software! ;)

I currently have an iPhone 4, and an iRig.

I have tried unsuccessfully to record/loop low bass drums like a surdo, dunun, tumba bass note, udu, etc. - a couple of ways - (using a SM-57 through an Alesis Pro-Track. and trying to generate the sound using a Korg Wavedrum direct into the iRig.)

In both cases I hear the deep bass in the p.a. speakers playing live, but the loop lacks the low frequencies. You can hear the hit, the higher harmonics of the note, but no deep satisfying THUMP.

I have also tried boosting the bass on both my P.A. EQ and in the software that comes with iRig

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

thanks

michael


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 Post subject: Re: Low Frequency (Percussion)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:02 pm 
Mancing Dolecules Team
Posts: 307
Hi Michael,

Thanks for the kudos :).

Regarding your problem, it's not a surprise for the iRig, because it uses the jack input which is high-pass filtered as you can see here : http://blog.faberacoustical.com/2010/iphone/iphone-4-audio-and-frequency-response-limitations/.

But for the ProTrack it's quite unexpected : http://blog.faberacoustical.com/2009/iphone/iphone-line-input-frequency-response-comparison/.

Have you tried to connect your wavedrum into the ProTrack directly ?

A good way to hear how the audio interface impact your sound is to compare :
- the chain "WaveDrum -> iPhone -> PA system" with Everyday Looper running with the Microphone PassThrough option activated.
- the chain "WaveDrum -> PA system"

Oh wait, I just saw that you have an iPhone 4. The ProTrack should not work with it at all, because Apple has reconfigured the dock connector. That's probably part of the problem - if you didn't use the ProTrack with another compatible device.

Raphaël


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 Post subject: Re: Low Frequency (Percussion)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:11 am 
Posts: 18
Hi Rapahel

Thanks for your reply.

Update: I now can get a live bass drum to record/loop well using microphone to pro-track to iRig to iPhone (not sure what changed - I think setting the pro-track to "mono".) I should be clear that my iPhone 4 is not connected to the Protrack via the dock plug in the bottom of the phone- rather it's mic/wavedrum to pro-track inputs, then output from the headphone jack and into the iRig

What I can't seem to get to work is wave drum to to pro-track to iRig to iPhone

For the live performance set-up I am trying to create, I want have both a mic for vocals and the wavedrum - hence using the pro-track as a sort of "mini mixer".

so, the issue now seems to be the interface between the wavedrum and the rest of the set-up. Since the live mic solution is working, I am starting to wonder if there are mismatching issues with wavedrum / iRig / iPhone impedance (a term I don't really understand, but which i read is a possible reason from reading the posts here) The Wavedrum specs are here: http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=563 If you have a moment, could you take a look and see if there's any obvious reason why it isn't working?

Is there a small/portable solution to get a mic and the wavedrum into the iPhone that is superior to the iRig?

thanks!

michael






Thanks for the kudos :).

Regarding your problem, it's not a surprise for the iRig, because it uses the jack input which is high-pass filtered as you can see here : http://blog.faberacoustical.com/2010/iphone/iphone-4-audio-and-frequency-response-limitations/.

But for the ProTrack it's quite unexpected : http://blog.faberacoustical.com/2009/iphone/iphone-line-input-frequency-response-comparison/.

Have you tried to connect your wavedrum into the ProTrack directly ?

A good way to hear how the audio interface impact your sound is to compare :
- the chain "WaveDrum -> iPhone -> PA system" with Everyday Looper running with the Microphone PassThrough option activated.
- the chain "WaveDrum -> PA system"

Oh wait, I just saw that you have an iPhone 4. The ProTrack should not work with it at all, because Apple has reconfigured the dock connector. That's probably part of the problem - if you didn't use the ProTrack with another compatible device.

Raphaël[/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: Low Frequency (Percussion)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:41 am 
Posts: 18
more update: I went and bought a cable to go from the Wavedrum line out puts and into the iPhone. No bass. So, apparently it's a wavedrum to iphone interface issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Low Frequency (Percussion)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:07 pm 
Mancing Dolecules Team
Posts: 307
When you use the ProTrack as a small 2 channel mixer, it's the ProTrack output that interacts with the iPhone input, no matter what you have connected to the ProTrack inputs.

If you validated that SM57 -> ProTrack -> iRig -> iPhone gives you full bass spectrum, then only the first link SM57 -> ProTrack can be put into question.

But WaveDrum -> ProTrack seems to be OK, the WaveDrum has line level output and the ProTrack line compatible inputs. And even if it was an impedance mismatch, WaveDrum-> iRig should have solved this impedance mismatch (the iRig has to have a big input impedance for handling guitar signals).

So you can do a kinda strange test to sort this out. Plug your WaveDrum into a PA that reproduces the low bass frequencies that you are looking for. Record the speakers with your SM57 -> ProTrack -> iRig -> iPhone. Then plug your iPhone directly back to the PA, playback your recording and listen if the low frequencies are still here.

The goal here is to have the same source (the WaveDrum samples) for both the Mic and the Line Out tests.

Raphaël


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 Post subject: Re: Low Frequency (Percussion)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:31 am 
Posts: 18
ok... hooked the wavedrum direct to P.A.and played the wavedrum "udu" live through that. Recorded it using:

a) the built in microphone in the iPhone - bass notes are there, thought the deepest harmonics are not

b) SM57 to Protrack to iPhone - bass notes as above, with a tiny bit less bass than a) above

c) SM57 to iRig to iPhone - bass notes almost disappear

d) Sm57 to Protrack to iRig to iPhone - bye bye bass notes


I did the same test playing a real ceramic udu miced through the PA, and got essentially the same results as above

I also tested the recording using a an app called iPro recorder, and got the same results (so the issue is clearly not EDL )



so, three theories:

1) the iPhone 4 may have some limitations on how low frequency it can record (which I deeply hope is NOT the case on the iPad since I have ordered one.

2) the Protrack loses a bit of the bass as well, though not much

3) the iRig dramatically cuts off the lowest frequencies of the wavedrum bass notes


I just read about the Alesis i/o Studio Dock. Unless you have a suggestion for a current product that has better bass handling than the iRig, I guess I will wait till the Studio Dock comes and and hope that solves things.

michael


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 Post subject: Re: Low Frequency (Percussion)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:07 am 
Mancing Dolecules Team
Posts: 307
Hi (again) Michael !

Interesting testing that you have done here. They look more coherent to me and seem to follow these measurement. It's not the iRig in itself that cuts the bass, but the headset mic input. With an AmpKit Link, the result would probably be the same.

The only thing that bother me is your b). With an iPhone 4, you can't do Protrack to iPhone normally, did you use an older iPhone ?

Even if we have no feedback/review about the ioDock, I urge to wait for it :). It uses its own ADC, and sends audio in digital format to the iPad. That way we should not see any bass response problem - unless the ADC is very VERY bad ^^.

Cheers !

Raphaël


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 Post subject: Re: Low Frequency (Percussion)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:27 am 
Posts: 18
regards b) i'm getting the signal from the ProTrack stereo headphone jack and "forcing" that to mono using 1/8' stereo male to 1/4 mono male into the iRig.

I agree - let's wait for the Alesis!

thanks

mw


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 Post subject: Re: Low Frequency (Percussion)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:07 pm 
Posts: 18
Location: Madrid
hi there!

just say i use eydylooper with my electric cello, which has a very bass notes, which need a rich low response from the device you use to play with.

working with my iphone 3GS i had serious limitations, bass notes just sound like a can, with no body at all. but surprisingly i got a ipod touch 4G and the bass notes finally appeared. the sound is much more clean and low freq richer.

i don´t know why is this, and if the iphone4 sounds as good as the ipod touch 4, but finally i found my partner!

_________________

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